Comments for The Pay of Chicago School Teachers and Selected Others at http://www.cepr.net , comment 1 to 37 out of 20 comments http://www.cepr.net Thu, 23 May 2013 09:11:14 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-19031 Many of the problems in education today are caused by overpaid administrators who bully teachers and try their best to break our unions. They don't teach anyone, and they, too often, only interfere with education. This is a petition to Congress asking them to cut administrators' pay all across America. This will save taxpayers lots of money, and improve education at the same time. The petition explains how, in detail. If you read it and agree with it, please sign it, and then spread it to others. Thank you. http://www.change.org/petitions/the-c-a-p-education-reform-proposal-save-america-s-schools-by-cutting-administrators-pay-with-federal-legislation - Robert Austin Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:49:56 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18817 [i]"they work for us, yet they get paid by us!",[/i] above should be [i]"they work for us, yet they get paid more than us!",[/i] - liberal Thu, 13 Sep 2012 03:06:01 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18816 [b]Charles[/b] blithered, [quote]So, we should not resent CEO pay because it is vastly greater than that of the workers?[/quote] Wha? CEO pay is to be resented not primarily because it's high, but because most of the pay received by most CEOs is economic rent (aka legalized theft). In other words, they're not getting paid because they make such useful contributions to the economy, or the firms they work for. It's plausible to argue that teachers collect some economic rent and are overpaid, but the multiple is probably pretty small. For CEOs, it's enormous. - liberal Thu, 13 Sep 2012 03:00:19 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18814 [b]Charles[/b] wrote, [quote]If they come to believe that teachers live lives of luxury, that support will evaporate. In fact, in Wisconsin, that seems to be exactly what happened. One of the most shocking statistics is how many non-union members living in union households voted to end collective bargaining.[/quote] Yes, it happened because rather powerful, wealthy interests pushed for it to happen. Again, if you want to start a discussion by citing labor market figures, more power to you. If you want to make apologies for people stoking resentment against government employees based on nothing other than "they work for us, yet they get paid by us!", then your actions are pernicious. - liberal Thu, 13 Sep 2012 02:51:27 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18813 [b]Charles[/b] wrote, [quote]Pay is not based on how pleasant work is. Maybe it should be, but that's not how it is.[/quote] Apparently you can't read. I wasn't comparing the working conditions of inner city school teachers to garbagemen, etc. Rather, I was comparing them to the conditions experienced by other teachers. It's clear that the labor market is going to dictate that a teacher is going to demand higher pay for working somewhere unpleasant, compared to somewhere less so. If you can't understand such a simple, basic fact about labor economics, I don't understand why you're posting on an economics blog. - liberal Thu, 13 Sep 2012 02:47:06 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18811 I'm thinking that managing, say, 20+ voluntary attendees ages 6 to 11 for 5+ hours per day while teaching, evaluating, arranging remedial services, supervising, and counseling/addressing emotions is laudable enough when none of the attendees is malnourished, disabled, nor homeless. Planning often takes place on the teacher's personal time. Now managing, teaching, evaluating, arranging remedial services, supervising, and counseling/addressing emotions, reading assignments, grading papers for 140+ attendees (only some of whom are voluntary, none of whom are unscathed by hormones) ages 12-17 is a whole 'nother ballgame. I figured 20+ students per class and 7 separate classes per day. Planning is still often on the teacher's own time. You can walk in and actually see these people at work. And those are just the primary and secondary teachers. Why are we squabbling about anything other than the best way to facilitate their success? They're OUR kids and future neighbors, for crying out loud! - Beth in OR Wed, 12 Sep 2012 21:34:13 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18810 Chicago teacher pay compared to other similar urban areas. - John Q Wed, 12 Sep 2012 20:28:43 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18809 ...which is the conclusion one would have to draw if the point that teachers engage in some job-related activities at home somehow distinguished teaching from every other profession. Talk about assumptions. Per the NEA, which probably does know, "teachers spend summers working second jobs, teaching summer school, and taking classes for certification renewal or to advance their careers." http://www.nea.org/home/12661.htm It requires no assumptions to recognize that the first two of the listed ways of spending summers are income-generating activities, the earnings from which are somehow ignored when non-annualized salary comparisons are made. Moreover, these are activities which are quite apparently readily accommodated by teachers' yearly schedules, however full those schedules might typically be. - daxxenos Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:03:31 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18808 I worked in an urban school district, retiring before anybody in a classroom made $70,000 a year, but I'd be willing to bet it's been recently that teachers in Chicago got paid that well. They no doubt started out making a salary that made if very difficult to make ends meet, like I did. Teaching in an urban school is hard work. Sometimes, it's dangerous work. Teachers in urban schools spend a lot of their own money for the supplies they need for the kids just to get through the day. I know what it's like to have to keep food on hand for kids who are hungry and not ready to learn. I bought scissors, paper, pencils, crayons and other things children need to be able to start a lesson, let alone complete one. I do, however wonder about all the urban school districts who are top heavy in administration with people making big salaries, but do nothing that really helps kids in a classroom. I'd like to know what the salary schedule is for Department of Defense Schools teachers, before condemning Chicago teachers. - ljm Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:04:48 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18806 Congratulations to Freebird, for posting one of the few comments with a link to useful facts. And fie on CEPR community for voting down my comment purely because you disagree with me. That is shameful, shameful behavior. - Charles Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:59 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18805 They are the highest paid teachers in the entire country and work the fewest hours. And you defend them? - wg Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:12:34 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18804 Liberals says, "Cost of living isn't the only factor to consider. Given that teaching in public schools in large cities is one hell of a lot less pleasant than most other places, the pay should be quite a bit higher even after adjusting for cost of living." Most jobs have downsides. Garbageman, chemist, assembly line worker, social worker, policeman, farmworker-- all of these have downsides, some serious. Pay is not based on how pleasant work is. Maybe it should be, but that's not how it is. Liberal says, "If you think that teachers are overpaid based on some kind of labor market determination, fine. But the idea that we should be cautious of paying government employees more than "the people they work for" is pernicious and will only result in crap government and a crap country." So, we should not resent CEO pay because it is vastly greater than that of the workers? The taxpayers are supporting the teachers. If they come to believe that teachers live lives of luxury, that support will evaporate. In fact, in Wisconsin, that seems to be exactly what happened. One of the most shocking statistics is how many non-union members living in union households voted to end collective bargaining. Thanks for calling me an idiot. I get paid $50 every time that happens. So, come on, everyone, stand up and shout it out. (Oh, and expressing contempt also conveys the sense that you can't argue based on facts or reason, or else you would let those and some gentle humor speak for you). - Charles Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:11:02 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18803 [b]David[/b] wrote, [quote]What's outrageous is that we vastly overpay medical doctors and CEOs compared to other developed countries...[/quote] Agreed. Not to mention that the banksters are very well paid, despite (a) almost destroying the world economy in 2008, (b) doing very little other than parasitically accruing economic rents, and (c) being essentially government employees, since if it were not for State action, all the major financial firms would have been buried and the banksters out of a job. Anyone who whines about teacher salaries and hasn't yet strung up a bankster from a lamppost should go pound sand. - liberal Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:32:37 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18802 [quote]What happened to annualized teacher salaries? written by daxxenos, September 12, 2012 12:44 Apparently, under Mr. Emanuel, the Chicago school year is 180 days, averaging seven hours per day for secondary schools and five hours 45 minutes for elementary schools. As some of the comments have already noted, any comparison of teacher salaries to salaries of non-teachers, whether those happen to be the Mayor or other college-educated workers, should also be annualized if the comparison is to be, as they say, meaningful to readers.[/quote] daxxenos' assumption, of course, is that teachers only work when they are at school, and only on those days that school is open. I strongly suggest that daxxenos take a job teaching at an inner city school, and figure out how much time annualized a teacher typically spends: grading 2-4 hours per night for 180 days (lessee, that adds on another 60-70 work days right there), parent-teacher conferences in the evening (since parents are working too), professional development days sponsored by the district (if you want those performance raises), continuing education (take a summer class every year or so, to keep current with your subject and its teaching methods, but also especially since a Master's gets you a raise; oh, and remember that tuition and books will come out of your own pocket), providing supervision for after-school events (evenings AND weekends). Well, you get the idea. The point is that daxxenos wants to compare an half an orange to an orange and claim that they are both oranges. Nonsense, poppycock, and bloody well ignorant. "180 days." Bleah. - David Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:49:33 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18801 Precisely how did this article arrive at the figure of $70,000 per year as the "average pay" of a Chicago public school teacher? Precisely what is included as "pay" in this average? And, more important, does the pay scale follow a normal curve, or is the median salary much lower (as we often see these days . . . and by now, we should all know what that means)? This reminds me so much of the days when Chicago steelworkers were said to make "exhorbitant" wages, and that the unions ultimately "forced" the closure of the major steel plants with their wage demands, when I personally knew many steelworkers who were considered highly skilled and were paid at the top of their grade, and NONE of them came close to the "exhorbitant" average. At the time, it turned out that they were including the full cost of health benefits in this "average wage." Also, of course, the typical office worker in Chicago had no idea that someone died in a steel mill every year, and that many were maimed . . . but I digress. These are all hard jobs. They are given absolutely no respect. This is not going to work out well in the end. This recession is sowing the seeds of a new rise in extreme inequality in America. If you think things are bad now, just wait. - Sonja Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:46:07 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18800 [quote]Cosmo10 written by Cosmo10, September 12, 2012 1:07 ... This strike is right down outrageous.[/quote] What's outrageous is that we vastly overpay medical doctors and CEOs compared to other developed countries, but significantly underpay and overwork our teachers. Your outrage is misplaced, Cosmo10. - David Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:40:28 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18798 [quote]Chicago vs NY/LA written by freebird, September 12, 2012 11:34 ...[/quote] That article also neglects to find out that NYC pays for healthcare insurance for employee and dependents. Chicago system does not (not sure how they do it, but it's not paid in full). Just that difference alone makes up for the pay differential. I didn't have time to check out the teacher pension plans, but I bet NYC is slightly more there, too. That article could also have sorted the bars in order of cost-of-living, or do a cross-plot of those. In short, the dollars aren't equal so it's all pretty meaningless. - David Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:33:54 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18797 The strike is NOT about money, it is about health care benefits and job security. You only get that money if you are actually working. As partially explained in the link below--by an excellent local writer who has written much on Chicago politics-there are long-standing issues not all of which are the mayors fault--although certainly he could have prevented this if he wanted to. http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/mayor-emanuel-pushes-chicago-teachers-toward-strike/Content?oid=7412909 - Jennifer Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:11:54 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18796 I think we miss the point here. In years of crunching government budget and stagnating wages [url]http://theeconomicbreakdown.com/archives/stagnating-wages-a-pure-question-of-supply-and-demand/[/url] in the private sector, it’s pretty bad taste to ask for more money or benefits while most American household are struggling to make ends meet. This strike is right down outrageous. - Cosmo10 Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:07:27 +0100 http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/the-pay-of-chicago-school-teachers-and-selected-others#comment-18795 Apparently, under Mr. Emanuel, the Chicago school year is 180 days, averaging seven hours per day for secondary schools and five hours 45 minutes for elementary schools. As some of the comments have already noted, any comparison of teacher salaries to salaries of non-teachers, whether those happen to be the Mayor or other college-educated workers, should also be annualized if the comparison is to be, as they say, meaningful to readers. - daxxenos Wed, 12 Sep 2012 07:44:28 +0100